From my past experience with message boards, I have realized that it is important for people to see that they cannot make judgments about the skills and abilities of other people just by posting a few messages. Personally, I have reserved judgment about many people here, even though I do wonder how effective some people may be at their jobs. I do this because of the means of communication we are using.

Lately, however, I have noticed that some people just do not understand many of the points I am trying to make. As a result, my opinions have appeared to be quite "warped." In reality, however, they are quite valid and academically sound; in fact, some have told me this privately but have went on to explain that they just don't feel comfortable expressing this based on the company they are in. Perhaps I am not explaining myself well, or perhaps some don't understand what I am saying - that I cannot answer.

It's really a shame that some have taken the liberty to assume that I have no respect for authority and tend to bend the rules quite often. The complete truth is that I am one of the most by the book staff members there is, and have even been criticized by campers a few times for this. I am not looking to convince people of this, as there really is no point. I realize we cannot totally judge a person based on their means of communication on this board; but obviously others do not feel the same. Furthermore, there seems to be somewhat of a gang mentality going on - meaning that some individuals who are "friends" with others seem to be supporting some of the opinions that are being made.

I am not going to attempt to be modest in my next statement. The fact is: I am one of the best camp staffers and educators out there. I come highly referred and know of many that can verify this. (Naturally, this will be the sentence some of you will pick-out to quote when drafting your reply, but I think I can handle it) Yes, I wasn't too thrilled with administration from this past summer. The reasons for this is that they showed an unwillingness to communicate. They begun the summer by not being truthful about my assignment, and were then unavailable when I tried to discuss the situation. I admit that I have very high expectations of my employer, but in no way did I ever show them any disrespect which some of you seem to suggest. I also think that those of you in a position of authority should look at yourselves - perhaps you are not as amazing at communication and supervision as you think - perhaps you let one of your greatest staff members get away because of this. From reading these postings, I feel this may be true for some of you.

My last point is quite simple. Camp is not all about teddy bear's and lollipops. If some of you think it is that simple, then there is one of two things going on: 1) you are incredible at what you do, or 2) you just don't see many of the things that go on and have campers that do not really confide and trust you. Frankly, I hope that it is #1, and for many of you that may be the case. From my experience, though, there are issues that will come up during a summer that need to be dealt with in an appropriate and professional way. I was hoping this could be a place where some of these things could be discussed - but instead it became a place where the ideas of others are not valued at all.

I think I will take a break for a few weeks. I will observe in the meantime, and maybe even post on some of the "fluffy" topics. Perhaps when (and if) I return full-force, people will have grown-up a little and know how to participate in effective debate.

Canuck-
You'll be missed. I, for one, truely value the oppinions of those who post what they believe, despite whether their views are popular or otherwise.

One thing that I know from over the years about what seperates a good counselor from an average one is a devotion to your ideals and morals, and an unyielding investment in your job. From the little I've read your posts over the past, I feel like you are one of these people.

You'll be missed here.
-RR

Hey buddy... Based on what I have seen (though I've not seen everything) I think you have great opinions, and are very good for sticking up for yourself. You stand by what you say, and back it up with facts and the like. Sometimes, people feel insulted what you say, or maybe not even insulted, just bothered, and that sparks a debate between you and that person. But hey, it's ok, debates are debates, they're there for the purpose of showing people why you believe what you do, and no one hates you or really thinks worse of you for it. NOBODY is questioning your ability as a camp counselor, and I'm glad you're so good at what you do. Don't worry so much. Everyone likes you, or at least respects you, and you have a lot of good contributions to this board. Don't stop making them because of a few incidents- that'll fade into the past really quickly, every post is a new start. Basically- things aren't as bad as you think. chin up.

Canuck, man, I really hope you will reconsider. I personally value your opinions and thoughts highly. I may not always agree with you, but I always read your posts with great interest. You are one of those who always backs up his opinion and refrains for the most part from calling anyone's ideas dumb or wrong.

As far as your saying that you think you are one of the best staffers out there, more power to you. Although I don't really have enough info to make a sound judgement, from what you've said here I would be inclined to take your word. You seem to be very hard-working, dedicated, smart individual with regards to camp. From reading your posts, I think you might make a very good camp director one day.

Anyways, I just hope you reconsider not posting around here. Taking a break can be a good thing, but I hope you decide to come back!

Canuck---I know that I don't always agree with the things you post here, but I do enjoy hearing your opinions and I think they really add a lot of valid points and new ways of looking at the matter at hand. I have fun debating with you and even more fun reading your debates with others. I hope that you don't leave us because it takes all kinds and I value you and you are definetly a group member that I look for in posts. Things sometimes get out of hand and if you give them time and put it in perspective they look diffrent. So, just don't post on that subject for a while and cool off! Don't leave the board for good because you'd be sorley missed!!!

OMG!!! I just re-read my post and I realized that I got to use some of my counseling skills on you! See...you are a VERY big asset to this board...PRATICE for camp!!!

Canuck
I do have to admit that my last statement in the ?gray areas? thread was a personally attack at you. For this, I am sorry. Some have said it?s was childish, and it was. I should have dropped out of the topic, a lot sooner.

But, just because things got a little ugly doesn?t mean that you should just go hide. At least you got the balls to back up what you believe. That stands for something.

Anyway, I?ll try to keep on the strait and narrow, even though I am still a kid at heart.

You see? This sort of thing is what happens when forums go unmoderated. Personal insults start to fly in particularly heated debates, and left unchecked it degenerates to good posters ending up leaving in a huff. It's stupid- I've seen the downfall of an entire mb start with something like this.

Anyway- off my soapbox. Canuck, you remind me of myself not too long ago. Regardless of what you say, I think that you like to play the devil's advocate sometimes just because you enjoy a good argument. I also believe that from your postings I have seen from you that you have some issues with authority. I also think that's a shame, because from those same postings I gather that you are an effective and excellent counselor. You are the type of guy who does camp for the campers and wants the senior staff to stand back and let you do your job without interference.

I could be totally wrong. You could have no problems with authority at all, you could hate arguments, and you could be an awful counselor. But whether I am right, wrong, or otherwise, I certainly am not judging you in any way, simply relating what I observe. I think your presence on the boards has been a very positive thing and I hope you can come back and continue to contribute in the future.

As it seems much of my topics are those that in turn turn out ugly, I feel a duty to reply to my friend's departure. I wish for all of you to read this sincerely and take it with a grain of salt. This I hope will change the board for atleast a little while anyways.

Firstly, I need to express how good of a resource this board is. The things we discuss in here quite frankly could be life or death situations, could really screw up or make peoples lives, believe me, this place is capable of changing the world at least in small ways. That sounds cheesy and cliche, but I beg you to deny the statement.

Secondly, we all have our childish and heated discussions, and the latter of those two are necessary I believe. The former however needs to go. I understand that even I myself get into childish manners as a last resort of loosing a debate. I hope we can tone that down. And I mean everyone. Stan did it once, Canuck did it, I've done it and I know all of you have done it. Let's just reread our posts after they are done and we have taken a few deep breaths. It's really not that hard.

Lastly, its utter stupidity to leave this board if you are a valuable resource and are gutsy (or self-assured) enough to actually back your opinions. To many times the genius' of the world do not get credit for novel and amazing ideas because they are too frightened to experience the humility that will come initially. I for instance feel that some of the rules at camp I allow my kids to break. Sure, a lot of people don't agree with that, but that's life. It's a part of the game. What the disagree'ers should do though is try to convince me otherwise with academic and learned information, not personal attacks. We are all adults (most of us anyway) and this is a medium with which we should further our knowledge of the camping and childcare world.

I beg for you to reconsider Adam, your values although sometimes contested will be missed and put a hole in the UBB itself. I know I speak for most in saying that no one should leave situations on bad feet. Retie your sneakers and hop back in the ring you damn canuck.

You gotta do what you gotta do. As for your comment "when people grow up a little" save it pal. Bluntly put-you grow up.

Canuck-You will be missed- I know that a lot people valued your opinions. And good luck in yourfuture camping adventures.

I wish you would stay and post some because you always bring an interesting side to a topic that I would never have thought of on my own. You give me insight that will be very valuable to my first year as a full time counselor. I will miss all the advice you have given through your posts. I think your opinions are quite valid most of the time.

And to the whole board... we must remember that everyone has the right to their own opinion... and we must remember not to lessen the value of anyones post. Everyone on here has important insight, and if we make personal attacks on one another- well, I think we are losing more than we gain.

What kind of world would this be if every time people didn't agree we threw moderators at them and censored their words and actions? I'm sorry, but that idea really sucks and it is a BIG part of the problems in the world today. Some people just can't handle being challenged and the thought that they could actually be wrong is unspeakable. I am not speaking about the attiude of Canuck here, but the actions and attitudes of others (whom I like just as well) who made a valued member feel unwelcome. I love this board and the people on it, but a lot of you were WAY out of line here and I took offense in the manner in which you dealt with a response you didn't agree with. Who's next? Is that why you want to become the moderator? Hoping to gain power and intimidate others who challenge your thought? Get off your high horse and act like an adult, act like a camp counselor should and be fair! I certianly hope that we aren't moderated because of your dodgy actions! I WILL leave this board if we are moderated because of a few---and I'm sure I'm not the only one who will do so.

Ummm....I'm not sure why you think moderators are out to censor your words. And I really hope you don't think
the people on this board are "hoping to gain power and intimidate others who challenge your thought." I can understand why some are worried that moderators may step out of line, but what you described is certainly not in the least bit the intent of those suggesting that this board would benefit from moderators.

I can understand why some are worried that moderators may step out of line, but what you described is certainly not in the least bit the intent of those suggesting that this board would benefit from moderators.[/B][/QUOTE]

If you have followed the whole "Touchy Gray Area" or the "Moderators" post you should probably get what I am saying here. If you are the people I am referring to...you prove my point.

Actually, I've been closely following the Grey Area and the Moderators threads, and I don't think that any of the parties whose posts got out of hand suggested that they become moderators. No, I won't mention any names, but I guess you can look back and check up on that yourself.

And I really don't know what you mean by: "If you are the people I am referring to...you prove my point."

Don't just think about how the idea of moderators could be abused; make sure to weigh its potential problems against its potential benefits. I can hear both sides of the argument. You should make sure you are thinking it through to the fullest.

I didn't really want to get into this, but I felt that some of the comments about the serious posts may have involved me. We seemed to have lengthy discussions that got rather in depth, though I don't feel that they got personal. But I've got to say that you are acting like a martyr to get attention and sympathy. If you want to get up off the mat and talk about other things, great, if you want to make a scene, thats fine, as well. IMO, you certainly are pationate about your feelings, but when challanged on specific points, you don't respond. Just restating your opinion is not a response.

Do what you need to do. All that I'll say, though, is that staff who feel that they know it all concern me. Typically, the end result is a staff member unwilling to learn from others. I do agree with Robert, though, you seem to feel that everyone else needs to grow up. Perhaps you need to look in the mirror a bit.

I have thought things through about the moderators. I was leaning towards support for them at first, but as I thought it through some more and reviewed the old posts I realized that I do not believe that a moderator would be in the best intrest of the group. Many people have posted very valid reasons that we should not have moderators (i.e. power struggles, loss of integrity in posts, being censored, ect.). When I think about why a few people want moderators I have a hard time finding any concrete reason for their use on this board. There were no people resorting to major name-calling, there were no threats...just heated debates. There was a little petty name calling and a few people had their feet stepped on, but in the long run I think those involved will not harbor any bad feelings toward others. I do believe that if this board was unnecessarily moderated because of this minor disagreement there would be many hard feelings between the communtiy and it would affect the board and it's content greatly and we would loose a lot of members.
There...you have heard even MORE reason why I do not support moderators...why do you??? BTW, who are you 'cause I gotta be honest, I've never heard of you (although it is probably another name for one of the board members which I don't find very credible), Sorry, but it is true...C'mon now...6 posts?!?!?!

Actually, I've been reading the board religiously since September (which is a few months before your December roots, I believe). I just like to read a lot more than I like to post No hard feelings though.
Oh, and I didn't say I'm in favor of moderators; I just wanted to make sure you're not acting too hastily in passing your judgement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darth_well:
[B]Actually, I've been reading the board religiously since September (which is a few months before your December roots, I believe). I just like to read a lot more than I like to post No hard feelings though.

Uummm...actually it says November on your registration info. I just have to ask...why are you just now joining in if you religously come to the board? I know I enjoy communicating with my fellow boardies and I was just wondering why you don't put oyur two cents in more often? We'd like to hear more from you, and I especially would like to know why you would excuse my posts so quiclky, asking for me to back my opinions up again and then back out when I asked for your opinion? No offense...

The reason it says November is because I didn't post until November. Like I said before, I don't like to post; I'd rather read and have been doing so for a while. It's just that I haven't been a counselor for very long at all, and I've been more interested to see what issues come up and what people have to say about them than to give my own unexperienced opinion. I guess I'm also just kind of shy. :-)

Anyway, back to moderators. I do understand your concerns. However, there were certain comments made in recent threads that were certainly out-of-line, and that sort of thing could be handled by moderators. Yes, these occasions are rare, but nevertheless they shouldn't happen at all. Of course, if a moderator would abuse his/her privilege, that would be horrible. For that reason, I think an ACA staff member would serve much better than a poster (not that I don't have faith in the posters here, but it's always better to be safe). That said, I thought that your threat to immediately leave the board because of your fears of abusive powers was out-of-line. I posted this time because I really do care about this board. I know that everyone here has a lot to contribute, and I don't think that anyone here intentionally wants to stifle the free-flow of ideas. So please, if a moderator does come along, at least give him/her a chance.

I've been on boards before where I just read and didn't post. For some reason, I just felt like I wanted to observe and not actually get involved with the discussions. When I started posting, it bothered people. For whatever reason, people don't like the idea of others just reading and not saying anything. *shrugs* But you do what you wanna do.
Oh and he said he'd been reading since September, not that he had been posting since September, he probably just didn't register until November. Just thought I'd make that more clear.
*backs away slowly and cautiously*

Thanks for the clarification! I really am not an angry person, and I apoligize if I came off that way. I never felt angry at anyone during the debate...I just feel really passionatley about some things. I just don't believe any of the people here have stepped over the lines and we have (for the most part) acted like adults and have not resorted to childish name calling and outright slaps in the face like you see on other boards. I think we can handle ourselves and tell each other if things get a bit too out of control, just like Canuck did here! We are counselors...we can handle ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

True

Hey, maybe I'll start posting some more now

Thanks for posting and adding some good points into this discussion! I hope you will become more active on this board and I look forward to hearing from you in the future!!!

Shelby

Canuck:
I know that nothing I can say will change your mind, but I just wanted to let you know that you will be missed.

I totally understand and relate with your feelings of being angry with others on this board judging you for what you write, I feel the same way.

I hope that at no time I caused you insult or injury, and if I did I do apologize.

I will be waiting your return, until then, I remain your Sweet Pea from the Northwoods.

As someone who religiously reads but sporadically posts here, I want to tell you, Canuck, that I don't consider any of your views "warped." I've always liked reading what you have to say about the issues on which I don't post. There are some people on here whose posts I skip over, and you're definitely not one of them. I'll miss hearing your side of arguments, and I'm sorry that the discussion degenerated into personal attacks on you. Nobody deserves that. CD7 didn't last year, and you don't now. I'm sorry it happened this way, I hope you'll be back, I hope everyone will act maturely on this board in the future. Drop me an e-mail if you ever want to chat about camp, if you find yourself missing this forum.
To everyone else, this is the internet. It is impossible to understand people's feelings, choices, or intentions in this medium. Please try not to assume things. Please try not to personally attack anyone. We all read and post here because we like hearing other people's stories and opinions. Don't drive anyone away.

This is my longest, most serious post here, because I really like this forum and I don't want to watch its decline. So don't let it!

Have a wonderful summer this year, all.

Meg

I in no way has found anyones posts warped or whatever the term used was. Sure we all state our opinions, and at times, I know I have gone a bit overboard, who hasnt.
If I have made any personal attacks (which I dont think I have) I am certainly not apologizing, this is the year 2003, certainly we have all grown up and learned to take hard hits as they come. We all post in the spirit of the moment we are in. If that happnes to be not so happy and "fluffy" than so be it. I'm sorry that Canuck was offended, and left or whatever, but that was his decision, and it is nto up to us to play the violin for his departure. Sure his posts were great and will be missed, but I'm not gonna beg for him to come back. He's just takig time off. Now befre ya'll jump my sh*t. These are just my views. I respect you all completely and enjoy reading everyones posts, but c'mon. It's not the end of the world.
And as for Lois Lane when she said there are some posts that she completely skips over b/c of whoever wrote them. I'm not attacking, just asking why.
Jiff

Oh, there are just some people who either say the same basic thing on every topic, or who I already know what they think cuz I've been reading this for a year and a half. By now, I know a lot of who I agree with and who I don't. I like reading new perspectives...

I'll add my two cents on this ...

First, I agree with those who are saying that we need to remember that there are people on the other side of these screen names, and we should not resort to personal attacks. Posts often lack tone and inflection, which may cause people to misunderstand the meaning or intention of the posts (we can only use smilies for some things). And I know that we do not all want to preface everything we post with "this is my opinion, don't judge me for having one" so we sometimes post with the assumption that we're all adults and will at least respect the fact that others have a right to their opinion. On that note, I agree that everyone should probably take a deep breath before responding to a post. However, I also know that we will get personal with our responses and that's probably not going to change (even with deep breaths!). But maybe it's just something to keep in the back of your mind.

As for Canuck leaving the board, you do what you've gotta do. However, I would like to say that I do not appreciate the suggestion that keeping other members happy is my (or anyone else's) responsibility.

I do hope that Canuck chooses to return to avid posting, but his leaving is not the end of the world, people.

Remember this thread guys? Good times.

Love ya, Northwoods!