#114125 - 06/03/10 01:27 AM
how many international staff.. ( is to many)
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knickers
150 to 200 posts
Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 169
Loc: Birmingham , England
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So mi go to a girl scout camp. Last year there was 11 internationals inlcuding 2 brits , 4 auz 5 nz and 1 turkish
This year there is apparnelty 27 british
3 auz 1 swedies 1 welsh 1 nz
there is only 40 memebers of staff
i cant help but think WTF
and there are poeple who didnt get hired back beacuse of there being so many int staff. I have almost deicded against not like all fellow brits .
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#114131 - 06/03/10 05:32 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: knickers]
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Smudge
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It very much depends on the camp and their attitude to internationals - one camp I worked on I actually wondered why they hired internations cos they didnt draw on any of our expereinces - they might as well have just had an all american staff.
The people who didnt get rehired was it def cos of all the internationals - cos i know that alot of camps try to avoid having too many international staff cos they are actually more expensive than US staff, so I would wonder if there reason that they were re-hired that maybe they havent been told or dont want to share.
I know at the GS camps I have been at international staff are the last resort for filling all the staff roles by the time camp starts - normally they have a set number (the camps i have been at it has been about half the staff) that they are allowed to hire and if they want to hire more they have to justify it up the "chain".
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#114135 - 06/03/10 08:38 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: stormy]
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Smudge
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Camp America is actually cheaper in returning years if you can get your paper work in before mid January - but that sometimes requires harrassing CDs cos it is usually before hiring for GS camps has started!
Not sure how it works for other agencies!
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#114138 - 06/03/10 10:42 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Smudge]
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heathesaurusrex
150 to 200 posts
Registered: 04/30/10
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Loc: NJ
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Hmm... well we have more than forty staff at my camp and less internationals than that. I feel like if I was the American that lived down the street and was told I couldn't come back cuz someones from NZ had my job I'd be pretty mad...
I think having some internationals offers a great experience for the kids to learn about other cultures and learn acceptance... (a lot of kids in my area make fun of even the slightest accents)
However, I also think that this is supposed to be the classic American summer camp experience and if I was a parent I'd be a little miffed that there were only 7 out of 40 Americans there to help my kid have the classic American summer camp experience...
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#114139 - 06/03/10 10:50 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: heathesaurusrex]
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Smudge
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I think that part of the classic experience is having international staff - but there needs to be a balance. On other hand it is better to a have fully staffed with lots of internationals of high quality than understaffed because the camp couldnt find enough locals who meet the requirements! And the thing about internationals is that we are the best of the best - organisations like CA wont take you if you arent! You need to have relevent experience (not necessirly with children) you need to be in uni or college (or have graduated) and you need to have passed a criminal record check to get on the program (as well as any the camp require!) and you need to have at least 2 good references and a character reference! I should clarify that on paper we are the best - sadly what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily translate to good counsellors!
And I have had summers were the camp just couldnt fill the positions with american staff - so ended up with more int than had orginally been planned for!
Edited by Smudge (06/03/10 01:11 PM)
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#114147 - 06/03/10 02:29 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: knickers]
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Fluke
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Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 466
Loc: Tewksbury, MA
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Definitely depends on the camp. I have a staff of 35 and 9 International staffers this summer - 1 from Turkey, 2 from Australia, 1 from Scotland, 1 from Iceland, and 4 from England. Three of those are returners who have worked at camp before. We only hire new staff from Camp America. We encourage all other staff to go through BUNAC as we can pay the SEVIS fee only and pay them more if they pay more fees on their side. It's a win-win for everyone - we save money, our staff makes more money.
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#114151 - 06/03/10 03:04 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Fluke]
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heathesaurusrex
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Registered: 04/30/10
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Smudge- if you think about it, summer camp has been around in america since before it was a particularly easy trip for internationals to make. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have internationals there, like I said, I think it's a good thing because it helps kids broaden their horizons and what not, I'm just saying I think having more than 3/4 of the staff be internationals infringes a bit on the idea of a classic American summer... if only because typically Americans have the best understanding of that concept. Also as far as the whole CA counselors being more qualified thing... every camp I applied to told me that I needed to be in college or graduated (unless i was like a CIT last year or whatever) and that I needed to have relevant experience and three professional references from said relevant experience. ex: I had to have my student teaching mentor, student teaching advisor, and one of my practicum mentors write me letters and if the director liked the letters (which happily one did) she called all three references and had a chat with them about me. So really... most camps want all of their applicants to fit that bill not just the internationals.
So again, I'm not saying international counselors are a bad thing. I rather think they're a good thing. I just think that as someone who lives in America right now, if someone told me I couldn't have my camp job this summer because they hired someone from NZ keeping in mind that I'm a teacher and don't have a summer job and America's economy is in the toilet, I'd be a bit miffed.
Also, many parents around here wouldn't understand the benefits of meeting people from other countries as well as those of us with a background in Ed would and might be a bit annoyed that the ElEd major down the street isn't their kid's counselor this year because 83% (yes I actually did the math) of the counselors are from out of the country.
Also, I should clarify, the only reason I say these things is because Knickers said some of the domestic staff didn't get hired back specifically because they filled their positions with international staff. I completely understand it if there wasn't enough US staff to fill positions, the part that I think is wrong is where they are removing Americans from their jobs to hire internationals.
Edited by heathesaurusrex (06/03/10 03:08 PM)
Edit Reason: last paragraph
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#114158 - 06/03/10 04:36 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: heathesaurusrex]
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Smudge
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Registered: 05/18/07
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I think it depends on the type of camp you work at what they are looking for interms of staff. I know that one camp I worked they hired alot of CA people cos we were cheaper (which is strange to me cos CA is expensive for camps) but the majority of their local staff were only 17. I didnt say that we are more qualified just that we are well qualified - i mean to work at chenoa I had to fill out 2 applications for CA, plus all the other stuff and a camp application.
It is possible that there were other reasons why these staff were not rehired - it might just have been that rather than giving the real reason for not rehiring the camps might have felt it was more tactful to say it was cos they had hired other people, additionally they might have left apply until it was too late and the jobs had been filled - camps cant really hold positions open in definately incase returners are applying!
Camp america was started because so many internationals were coming to work at camps even before the organisation started in the 60s. To the kids I have worked with and their parents a big part of the experience is where will their counsellors be from, and some parents are highly delighted when their daughters have ended up in a unit with an all internationals staff - as long as the staff can speak english well enough to communicate it should add to the experience!
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#114159 - 06/03/10 04:38 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: heathesaurusrex]
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DoeSarah
200 to 300 posts
Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 244
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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I like having internationals, but I agree that having more internationals than American (or in my case, Canadian) staff could be a problem. Yes, internationals tend to come with relevant experience, but not usually camp experience. Which to me, makes them equal with our 16 yr old first year staff in terms of camp experience (actually, our 16 yr olds tend to have more camp experience), at least until a few weeks in. Obviously, due to age, internationals are more mature, but they don't usually know how camp works, they don't usually have a knowledge of Girl Guides, and having the majority of staff with no camp/Girl Guide experience would be a disaster and I think would definitely take away from the "traditional" camp experience, at least for the campers in the first part of the summer. Don't get me wrong, I love internationals. But especially at the beginning of the summer, I think experienced camp staff are more valuable.
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#114161 - 06/03/10 06:34 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: DoeSarah]
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Teenster
1,500 to 2,000 posts
Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 1858
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I don't really know how many international staff are too many. I like working with most international staff. Though, I know that the camp I went to as a camper would purposely hire international staff over American staff. There were quite a few really great people who weren't given jobs just because they weren't international. I have not run into that problem at any of the camps that I've worked at.
Currently, most of our international staff are from Russia, and most of them work in the kitchen or in maintenance and housekeeping. Then a few more, usually from England or Puerto Rico, work in programs and live in the bunks with the campers. In order to work in a program, it is required that the international staff member speak fluent English. Our staff director will fly overseas to different countries and meet and recruit international staff.
One summer at a GS camp we had an international kitchen staff revolt. We had two kitchen helpers, there was a break in communication, and they weren't told by Camp America that they would be working in the kitchen. So, they formed a little union and refused to work until they were put into a unit and became a regular unit counselor. There really wasn't much the director could do except give them what they wanted. Because of this, the unit counselors and unit leaders were scheduled to work in the kitchen. It was an intense last three weeks of summer.
- Teenster 
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#114162 - 06/03/10 06:58 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Teenster]
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Smudge
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We had a counsellor in 02 who turned up expecting to be a counsellor and how she got onto the CA program I dont know cos she couldnt speak a work of english - she was transfered to another camp where she worked in the laundry and didnt have any contact with the campers!
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#114168 - 06/03/10 09:46 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Smudge]
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heathesaurusrex
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Registered: 04/30/10
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Well, like I said, I like internationals, but not at the expense of domestics... but then I'm a domestic lol. Like I said, it's hard enough for us to get jobs to begin with let alone jobs that let us get relevant experience in education (especially considering the major budget cuts the education system is getting) so I personally think that it's wrong that people are hiring internationals over Americans for the all American summer camp experience, that's all.
But, you know, if they can't find American staff that is more appropriate for the job then it makes sense.
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#114170 - 06/04/10 05:54 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: heathesaurusrex]
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Teenster
1,500 to 2,000 posts
Registered: 05/05/04
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Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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I know that in some cases hiring an international staff member through a group like Camp America is a little cheaper than hiring an American staff member. I'm pretty sure that's why the camp I went to as a camper hired more international staff. Really, I love working with international people, I just don't like it when a camp (or any where else for that matter) will cut corners to save a few bucks.
Also, I don't know a whole lot about Camp America (or groups like it), but it still seems odd to me that they wouldn't tell staff what they would be doing at camp. With the exception of that one summer, all international kitchen staff I have worked with knew exactly what they were "getting into" when it came to their duties at camp. I remember the director had it in her mind that those staff made up their claim just because they didn't like the lead cook. I also know that a lot of the unit staff were really mad that they had to cover in the kitchen, then because of that many quality staff didn't return for another summer. Many put on their staff eval forms they wouldn't come back because they had to work in the kitchen, and they weren't told that when they were hired.
Back to the thread... I was thinking about international staff (while giving a state test... yay, teaching high school), and I think I like a good mix of Americans and international. Though, I would like there to be a mix of international staffers so that the campers can have more of an "experience" with a different culture.
- Teenster
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#114172 - 06/04/10 06:50 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Teenster]
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Smudge
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I think you could be right teenster cos to be honest why would they have waited until half way through the camp to create a fuss! If i turned up at camp expecting to do one thing and was told I was doing something completely different I would be speaking the CD asap and if didnt get satisfaction I would go to CA rather than going on strike!
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#114177 - 06/04/10 09:15 AM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Giggles]
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Smudge
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I only ever worked with one counsellor who put up a fuss and we all thought she was going to get sacked - i think think the only reason she wasnt was that it was close to the end of the summer and she had already book alsorts of travel (and if you are sacked you have to leave the country unless your agency can find you another placement which isnt likely at the end of the summer!)
I think part of the problem with Internations not knowing what to expect is 2 fold and it is more their fault than the agencies - I know that if you read CAs literature properly it tells you all the different types of camps you can go to and makes it crystal clear that not all camps have the amazing facilities of the private camps etc, but most poeple dont read everything - it is the same as people complaining about hidden costs - CA tell you straight up what your fee to them does and doesnt cover!
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#114187 - 06/04/10 03:27 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Smudge]
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skyblue
25 to 50 posts
Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 29
Loc: Ireland
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See, this is why I don't use an agency. I knew exactly what I was getting into, got the same pay as american staff and had a contract stating exactly what I was being hired for, from the camp. I also didn't have to fork out a fortune to be allowed to work :P
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#114189 - 06/04/10 04:37 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: skyblue]
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Smudge
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Ah with CA especially if you were returning what you paid them was actually less than the cost of the flights there and back!
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#114190 - 06/04/10 04:40 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Smudge]
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skyblue
25 to 50 posts
Registered: 05/22/09
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Loc: Ireland
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I don't pay for flights 
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#114191 - 06/04/10 04:48 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: skyblue]
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Smudge
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Yeah but you are unusal in that regard - most of use do - and the £200 i paid CA for flights, insurance etc was far less than the Virgin flights would have cost - infact the cost on my ticket was over £500.
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#114193 - 06/04/10 05:04 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: Smudge]
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skyblue
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Registered: 05/22/09
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wow, that's some serious amount of subsidising that first year staff are doing!
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#114194 - 06/04/10 05:07 PM
Re: how many international staff.. ( is to many)
[Re: skyblue]
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Smudge
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Not really - their costs are about £500 for everything! Camps pay agencies as much as $1100 per person!
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The girls who wanted to come back couldn't afford it, and the camps in our council couldn't either. I'm not sure what the price difference is going through Camp America?
