ACA Home Forums off topic- teacher advice needed

Ok, so I am doing my student teaching in what can only be called innercity (though I didn't realize this until after starting) in a 87% free/reduced lunch school in a kindergarten class. I have 20 students, 13 boys, 7 girls (yeah...). JUst about every one of them has a rough home life and many of them have anger issues. It really frustrates me because this has been an area of strength for me in any other kid situation- camp, preschool, baby-sitting, a first grade practicum) but these kids will NOT listen to me. Some of them are kind of starting to, sort of.

I've been in the class full-time for 6 weeks now and have had full-responsibility for 2 of those 6. I met them basically at the beginning of those 6 weeks so it's gone beyond just the simple testing of the new teacher. My cooperating teacher has authority with these kids and I was doing things similar to her ways so as not to distrub their routine and because it worked well with her. Well apparently it doesn't work with them. I've tried doing random jelly beans to the kids making good choices, highlighting their name on a list for a warning, one check is missing 5 minutes of recess, 2 checks is all of recess. This works ok-ish for morning recess but there is only so much room at the back table for all of the kids at lunch so if I put too many there they just talk because there is not a separate room or teacher to police that area. Also, I hate the idea of missing recess because I feel like that's just what they need when they get too crazy but I don't know of any other ideas and that's what my teacher said that worked well for them and her.

I can't send a letter home because most of these kids wouldn't get help at home/reinforcement of my authority with any of this even if I did send a note home.

Currently I carry/post a list of the kids names and highlight them when they are not behaving. That's a warning. One check and they miss 5 minutes of recess, 2 they miss all of recess. Sometimes that means staying inside with my master teacher and other times it means sitting against the wall outside. This is for morning recess. Then the process starts over for the second half of the morning and if they get 1 check it is sitting at the back table (supposedly not talking, but that just doesn't get monitored because of staffing) and then for 5 minutes of recess which is easier to monitor. 2 checks means back table for all of recess. Problem is that they end up outside anyway half of the time. So yeah.

I've also done jellybeans when I catch kids being good (as well as saying that "im getting my jelly beans and looking for the first kids to be sitting down quietly" yeah, I know, bribery though more subtle and never "if you do this I'll give you ___... ugh!) They also have a table point system set up wher they earn points as a table and then get a gummy bear at the end of the day if their table wins. The whole school does a thing where if the kids earn a compliment in the hallways from another adult besides their teacher then they get a point. When the class gets 10 points they get to have an ice cream party or whatever they decide on. It took us about 5 weeks to earn 10 compliments. Most of them were earned when the troublemakers were in the classroom for their recess and I had like 8 kids.

So, yeah, I guess atthis point I'm so frustrated and upset that I can't get it because I thought I had it down and also I've got everything else down like lesson planning and teaching and I know there are a lot of teachers on the board so I thought I'd ask. Help?!?!

sorry, I just glanced at my post and realized I repeated my self a little. I started this post in the morning and then finished it just now so I apparently repeated some stuff...

I teach high school inner city... not kindergarten, but I'll give it a go.

When I started teaching in inner city, I realized that many of my students did not respect me for two reasons. First my age and second, I didn't have a reputation. Kids (in general) expect the teacher to be older and not look like their older sister or cousin. So, when I came in and attempted to set ground rules, they didn't see me in an authority role just because of my looks. There really isn't much that you can do about that. Teaching in the inner city has become a lot easier now because I have been here for 6 years. Now, students know that Ms. McGuire is strict, but you'll learn something in her class. They know that I will send students out, and write them up for skipping, disobeying, etc. Again, not a lot you can do about that.

My advice is to stick to your guns. I think the jelly beans and gummy bears are a good why to encourage your students to make good choices. The time out of recess is also a good policy, but unfortunately doesn't work with this generation of kid. These kids (yes, this is where kindergarteners and high schoolers are the same) are fearless. They don't see a time out as punishment. They don't think that anyone (including anyone of authority) can and should tell them what to do. They understand that if they act up in class, and their friends do the same, they get to sit together at lunch. My only advice here, and I'm not sure if it would work, is to make the recess/lunch time out really a punishment. If the space allows, split the students up so they aren't sitting with anyone. If there is another teacher in your hall, maybe you could trade trouble making kids for the time out punishment. When they are in the time out, maybe have them complete some sort of worksheet or assignment, and they cannot leave time out until the assignment is finished.

Lastly, parent contact might work. When I have a problem student and I call home, about 7 out of 10 times, the student returns to school with a better attitude and sometimes will even apologize to me. The parent contact shows these kids that you mean business. Sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes it will back fire, but at least you made the attempt. Also, talk to some other younger teachers (not just kindergarten teachers) and see how they do discipline in their classrooms, maybe you can get some ideas.

Good luck, I've been there.

- Teenster

One more thing I thought of... lol.

In my early months of teaching, I had the principal come in and observe. He sat in the back, and the students knew that he was there, but that didn't really stop their behavior. He noticed that things were really out of control, and also noted that it wasn't my fault. He helped out with some of the discipline and parent contact. It is important to remember before doing this, that you explain to your principal your frustrations and both of you come up with a game plan for the observation.

- Teenster

Thanks, Teenster.

The kindergarten thing makes the age thing a little more separated (not to mention they don't have a full grasp on age past kid, teenager, adult, grandma-age), but I do completely agree that some kids see the back table (where the no recess kids sit for lunch/recess) can become a party table if their friends get it. In fact, I've even seen a kid not-so-subtly-right-in-front-of-me tell their friend to do something to get to the back table so they could sit together sicne the other one was already there.

Yeah, the kids haven't stopped their behavior for the principal or anyone else in the class except maybe my cooperating teacher, especially if she is right there or gets involved. I'm not sure if this principal would really be of assistance or not. Soon enough I'm going to need to have her come observe me though for a letter of rec for my placement file so I suppose having her come in early and explaining some of this to her might help.

The back table is kind of a joke but as much as I have thought of having them stay in the classroom with me I wonder if that would be good for my sanity for after lunch time. Maybe I go eat lunch in the teachers lounge (I think 15 minutes) and then go get them to have them put their heads down at their table in class for the recess time. This would at least ensure that the stinkin' lunch teachers wouldn't send them out to recess anyway. I guess I can ask my teacher about that one. Some of them really hate missing recess. I'm not sure about some of them though because they put on this tough attitude where they say "I have recess at home" so I'm not sure if they are just playing me or if they really don't care.

I'll try and hit this up again later to offer some ideas when my brain isn't so fuzzy from the cough syrup.

In the meantime - I just wanted to offer hugs - and please know that it isn't 'just you'. I worked full time and now substitute at an inner city daycare, and it took nearly a year for me to start getting any sort of authority with the preschoolers. Does your school have a lot of turnover? I know that's a pretty big problem with the center that I work at.

One thing that worked for me well was making sure to go out of my way to mention it to the parents or send a note home when a challenging kid has had a really good day - making a big deal out of it so they are more likely to do it again.

Okay, as a fellow teacher, my heart goes out to you. It's not easy with kids that have little discipline at home and feel that authority doesn't matter. There are various ways you can discipline children and it often takes a few years of teaching to perfect your methods. Here's my advice:
-Don't be nice, be strict. If someone misbehaves they get one warning and then time out.
-I teach PE so I know how important recess is to the kids. Here's my thoughts on that. Can you have them do an activity during that time that they don't like. For example, walking in a circle around a specific area away from each other and the rest of their classmates.
-Keep using the good behavior incentives. Stickers are also an excellent tool, especially for the little ones. They love stickers. You could have them earn a sticker each time they're good and then if they get a certain number of stickers, they get something special (such as a trip to the special treasure box.) You could also just give stickers for the kids that are caught being good
-I agree that parent contact can actually be helpful in some cases. There are parents that actually care and want their children to behave and do well in school. So, try contacting parents. It may help.
-Also, have students who are in time out during recess be away from each other, even if it's in a similar area. Like, instead of sitting at a table have them separated on the floor. You could have them write 2-3 sentences about why they are in timeout or an apology for what they did. This may also help.
-As a last resort, have the Assistant Principal involved (or whoever is the behavior administrator at your school) and have the student go see them, this often scares them enough that they don't want to misbehave. Usually the AP is excellent about working with you to help.
-Another idea is to have a sort of behavior contract with specific students who are misbehaving. If they do______________ then they get to have a certain privilege. This could work wonders with some students.
-There's also the possibility of sitting with your cooperating teacher and asking for tips/pointers/how she can help you gain more respect.

Hope this helps. Know that you're not the only one this happens to and that it will get better. It's also hard because it's coming up on the end of the year and all of the kids are crazy. Believe me, right now even the really awesome kids are antsy, they know summer is coming soon enough and can't help but be excited for it.

Yeah, I could send notes home for good days! On most days I have prep in the last half hour of the school day so it would work out that I would be able to have the whole day and then have some quiet time to write them!

I went to observe a 17 year teaching veteran who has a really difficult class of kindergarteners this year and it took her until December to really get a hole on her kids. She does a ticket system where they can earn and be fined tickets. Then when they get 10 (they can only count them at snack time, though i'll have to figure that one out for me since we usually have snack outside with recess) they get a trip to the treasure box. Her kids have little pouches on the ack of their chairs for all their papers/notebooks so they just put an envelope with their tickets in their chair. My kids don't have those so they will have to put them in a pocket chart that I hung in the room for them with a little pocket for each kid.

The other hesitation on parent contact (because I do agree, some of my kids have great parent/guardian support) is that one time I wanted to do that for a kid (one where the kid's attitude got out of control) and my master teacher didn't seem open to the idea.

Not sure that having the kids do physical activity they don't like as punishment is particularly allowed, though I'm not sure if it would work as an alternative to recess. But also, it might be difficult to monitor and do...

Yeah, I do separate them at recess time when they are on the wall. There's plenty of wall space for that so it works out well. The back table is a little different during lunch time but during recess they might be able to spread out. I'm not in charge of that part though.

I've been talking to my master teacher a little and I've tried these ideas. I'm not sure at this point what she thinks the problem is though, but I'm kinda scared to ask.

Exactly, the worst possible time to student teach- though fall would also be rough- when all their teachers have some semblance of control over them but they are getting antsy and I'm here with very little control and they are getting antsy. Plus without that control they see me as a pushover already so it's extra difficult to reign them in when I started bad somehow (I learned this as a 13 year old day camp assistant- better to start strict and loosen up then to start loose and have to become stricter, and yet somehow it got away from me)

It's rough because i only have 5 weeks to get this in control to show that I do know what I'm doing for passing student teaching and getting letters of rec... so even though it took the 17 year veteran 3 months (for a different class, but still, same school and all, I'm supposed to do it in 2... They may understand this but I'm not really sure.

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm hoping this ticket thing will work out well. Gonna have to go to the dollar store tomorrow. I've got enough for now, but I've got to get more and figure out how to fit it into the schedule.

Even though I am not a teacher, I have volunteered at my local school district as a reading buddy and our school district is not inner city but our kids come from low income houeholds-90% or more get free or reduced lunches. From what I observed, for the children with issues similar to the ones you mentioned, the teachers used the techinquies you described Giggles or the techinquies described by campingqueen.

I am sorry but I did not understand your post.
Drew Brees Jersey. What issues and what are we to expect in the form of these issues.Kindly be a little more specific

Sport10 sounds like you are posting spam-- you have been reported

Good thinking Marty I tried reporting but it said the Moderator was already aware so thanks for doing that!

As for the ticket system, that sounds like a good plan for these kids. You could also use one ticket and add stickers and once they earn 10 stickers they get to go to the treasure box. Another thought that may be easier and take up less space.

I've got a really good sized pocket chart and it seems to be working though covering one of the alphabet charts but it's better than nothing. It's also right next to the rug for circle time which is really convenient. I am really liking the ticket system after day one so hopefully things will continue to improve. I had a couple kids who melted down but it wasn't because of the chart and no matter what I did today I'm 99% sure they both would have melted down. One was a home issue that went on last night and he's an angry child with a rough life. The other kid I'm not sure what's up with him but he's becoming increasingly violent so he spent the day in in school suspension.

All in all, much much better today.

It sounds like some of your kids are like some of the kids I had when I worked at a low income camp in New Jersey. There was a big difference in that camp and the camp I worked in PA

i just skimmed your post...so i may have missed it...but what kind of misbehavior are you having trouble with? kindergarten students have incredibly short attention spans and needs lots of opportunities to talk and move around. just some things to reflect on...are you sure you are changing activities frequently enough, or is it possible that lessons are too long? are the students getting enough opportunities to talk (to the teachers and to each other), or is it possible that they are being expected to be quiet for too long? are you engaging the students in different types of learning activities (fine motor, gross motor, whole group, small group, music, art, etc.)? are you giving them movement breaks in between learning...maybe a quick round of simon says or head-shoulders-knees and toes? i'm not saying it's your fault...but sometimes it helps to think of things from the students' perspective. also, have you tried videotaping yourself? sometimes watching yourself teaching can help you reflect and allow you to see things that you might have missed the first time. good luck

I teach fourth grade in a big city school, though we're not inner city (we're between 55-60 percent FRL). I have a difficult classroom mix this year, as well. I took me weeks to really have my kids to a point where I was happy with their behavior.

With some difficult kids, if you build a relationship with them, you can get them to behave because you ask them to.

Student engagement is a major key to keeping kids behaving in elementary school. It's true in fourth, but even more so with the younger kids. Have you tried teaching with songs? I have my kids answer a lot of things with thumbs up/down so everyone has to participate. For short answers, sometimes I'll have the kids all call out the answer together on three or such. Call and response works well, too, especially if you add in silly voices or repeating at a whisper/loudly, etc.

If you haven't already, set up a quiet/attention signal with the class. I personally like call and response ones. Really, pretty similar to what I use at camp. In my classroom, I often use either saying 'Peace' with the class responding 'Quiet' or 'One, Two, Three eyes on me'/'One, two eyes on you.

Setting up a system with the paper slips sounds great. Have you considered having them earn the right to special time with you? Kids /love/ teacher attention. Getting to sit with you and eat lunch talking about silly kid things or play a special game with you could be good incentive for kids to get attention the right way. Positive letters/notes home are awesome as well or bragging about kids to their parents if you see parents during pick up time.

I'd ask the teacher about why she doesn't like parent contact. It might have been that particular student. I've had a couple I didn't call home to because I knew that the parent reaction would be detrimental, especially if I suspected the parent might be abusive or on substances but had no evidence to report (or had reported to CPS, because we often get little/no response to that if it's minor).

For a book recommendation, I read and got a lot out of the book Teach Like a Champion. Silly title, but it's basically a group of classroom management strategies that have proven effective in urban classrooms. Some things in there just aren't me, but I definitely use quite a few things from it.

Ok - a few more ideas - my experience with younger kids is mostly preschool, but they are close in age, so hopefully there is something that maybe you can use.

I had a similar thought to what Flower said about parent contact - a lot of times I have a really hard time talking to parents when their kids have misbehaved, because for the kids in my school, it is very common for them to be punished by 'getting a whoopin', and I don't want to be a part of that. I have had a parent take their child into the bathroom and spank them there for misbehaving - I went home crying that night.


Our Preschool 1 class (3s) have a gumball jar to reinforce good behavior. It's a picture of a gumball machine drawn on a large piece of poster board covered with contact paper so you can write on it with a wipe off crayon or marker. They get gumballs (drawn on) when they do something good, either individually (I'm adding a gumball because Katie picked up all of her toys without being asked) or as a group (We've done such a good time getting to the carpet for circle time, so I'm going to add a gumball.) When the machine is full, they get a special event, like a pajama day or popsicles at snack time.

We have an interventionist who uses puppets to role play with the students and talk about good behavior. We try to distill the list of expected behavior down to the fewest things possible, so that the students don't have a lot to remember. Ours is something like:
We:
Listen when the teacher is talking.
Use safe hands and feet.
Clean up when we are done.

I think that there is one or two more, but I can't remember them right now.

At the beginning of activities where they have to pay attention - like story time or circle time, I had a whole routine that seemed to work well. First, we'd stand on the carpet and shake our wiggles out. Then we'd sit down. I'd tell them that we had to make sure that everyone has their own space, so it was important that no one was touching anyone else. Then, we'd all 'turn on' our listening ears together, and then take our 'key' out of our pocket and lock our lips so that we were ready to listen. And make sure that we put the 'key' back in our pocket so that we could eat lunch later...hehe.

Yes, danilys, the kids are getting enough movement. The behaviors are even from the beginning of the day, though they get worse as the day goes on (it's full day kindergarten). I'm using the same schedule as my master teacher so the kids know the routine and it works for them when she teaches. They start at 9 and do an entry task, then circle time including songs, calendar, and explaining their morning work. They then return to their desks to do their morning work. I'm not super strict about how they sit or if they fidget a little because they are kids. By 10:30 we are out at recess with our snack of fruit (the school gets a grant to buy fresh fruit/veggies for each kid and teacher to have one each school day) and they run around for a good 20 minutes. By 11 we are back in class doing reading group for 15 minutes, then literacy centers for 30 minutes, then story time and lunch/recess. From 1:15-1:45 They get a mini-lesson/prompt for writer's workshop and then they write. Then it's time for a little math, packing up, and then their special whether it's music/gym each 2 days a week, or library once a week.

That may have been too much info, but there it is. I thought of the class working together to earn marbles in a jar (I've seen the coloring gumballs thing too) but the school has a system of earning compliments in the halls for quiet nice lines walking to places so when the kids earn 10 compliments they get an ice cream or popcorn party or whatever it may be. They are only slightly phased for a second into behaving. Some couldn't care less.

Yeah, it could have been that particular student but I've also never once heard her mention any parent contact unless it was with office referrals/suspensions. I agree, I don't particularly want to send home a bad report because some parents would react badly. I did have a really good return on my video taping consent forms (after 3 attempts and about 4 days after the 3rd attempt in 3 weeks or so I got ALL 20 of them back!!!!). So that answers another question, I have video taped myself. I'm doing the TPA (Teacher Performance Assessment) which is a new unit planning, assessing, evaluating, reflecting thing for student teachers.

That little routine might work, but I can see some of my kids just completely ignoring it depending on their mood. I am going over the "good choices" that earn tickets with the kids and having them help me with them each time now that I've got the ticket system set up so we review what gets a ticket and what doesn't. I've also managed to set up the expectations again that they had in the beginning of the year which didn't seem to be as strict by the time I came in so I didn't realize I should go back to the September routines. They are now no longer able to get up out of their seats (ok, so still kindergarteners and all, i realize, but they can sit in their seats for some time and I do let them get up when they complete their work, which doesn't take too long provided that they actually work on it... and if I give them a ticket or they are going to the bathroom or getting something I say they can.

Also, a really cool thing I love is that they put their hands up with the "R" ASL sign (pointer and middle fingers crossed) to signify that they need the restroom instead of help or completed work. I can just see it and tell them yes or to wait until the other boy comes back from the bathroom.

They are still kindergartners but they in general are really catching on quickly to the raising their hands whe nthey are done instead of just crowding me and shoving their papers in my face while I look at some other kid's work. Still need work but much better considering today was day one!

Yeah, there are a few ways we get their attention both ones that my master teacher used and new ones I've used. They seem to have been used before since they understand them. I've use the 123 one and one where I say "If you can hear me do this..." I've also taken to just beating a rhythm on my legs or clapping or something and they just join in when they realize I'm doing it. I'll switch it up too.

Yeah, I'm working hard to build relationships with the kids but some require more of a relationship and more nurturing of a relationship. This boy who got in school suspension today was GREAT this mornining and then by centers time he was done. I gave hime tickets galore, and positive attention galore and everything and he got to go see the counselor to visit because he finished his work and everything. By lunch he was hitting kids and flipping chairs. Plus without a decent general control of the classroom I can't spend extra time with him because I need to put out fires and go help other kids too. As a student teacher I'm still learning to manage 20 5-6 year olds on my own and all so it's hard to get to those things too. I understand it needs to get done and I'm doing my best and i don't doubt that I'll get there but it takes time and practice. I've got a great head start with my Special Ed classes on behavior and becaue of that I understand the function of behavior and I'm slowly winning a kid over, and I've got my years of camp with the similar age groups, and the preschoolers, but at max I can have 10 by myself. I have double that and I can't physically put them in time out partially because they won't stay and I can't devote 45 mintues to a time out for one kid when I've got 19 others and no other teacher like at preschool. (Plus the preschooelrs spend most of their day that I was there free playing or at centers)

wow, sorry abut the rambling. I'm hopeful this will help (not overly hopeful because I know every system has it's roller coasters and this was only day one, but a little bit of hope). Thanks for all the advice! I've got a book called The First Days of School coming (5 bucks online, used!!) and I'll probably check out that book Flower reccommended.

How have things been going? I've been thinking of you.

aww, thanks. I looked at this post a couple days ago but didn't have the time for a lengthy post so I left it and then my cousin was here and I forgot. I don't really have time now, but I'm procrastinating, so here I am!

It's not really going any better. The ticket system worked for about a day. Maybe I didn't stick it out long enough or I did something different day 2 and 3 than day 1 or maybe they just lost interest. Some of the kids, the ones I don't have the control over will pick and choose when the tickets are reinforcing and when they aren't. It's the kids I'm not really worried about, the ones who listen because you're the teacher but occasionally forget and talk to their friends during learning time because they are no older than 6.

I'll let you guys know more later. I've got a meeting with my cooperating teacher and my university supervisor after school today and then I've got to bust out this assignment and then I'll be back, so perhaps tomorrow, but likely when I need a break from the assignment tonight